About encouraging people to use i2p

I2P router issues
gongzisun
Posts: 5
Joined: 23 Mar 2018 08:20

About encouraging people to use i2p

Post by gongzisun »

Sorry, I don't know which Sub to post this.

I'd like to start this discussion, I really want the i2p team discuss this point, it should be a topic in your meetings.

…………………
My points:

More outproxys for clearnet, if not, you have to think about content, people use i2p for what? building their sites/apps? not everyone can/will do that. In the other side , if all i2p user are geeks, use i2p to create something, no ordinary users be here, they build it for whom?

I2P welcome every developer create something in it, but the user is the motivation of Devs, but the user need the product first, it is a contradiction, how to break the loop, I think you guys should do something in the beginning, bring the user, than get the more Devs. More development, more products, more users, more nodes, more bigger I2P.

Seriously, how to use i2p is not a problem, Google can help easily. if you said how to use i2p to build something, i am sure that is not a problem for geeks, how to build, it is never a normal user's work. Geek build, user use, but geek few, user most. You should not expect everyone in i2p use i2p to create his own stuff like geeks, most user will browser sites, use apps, not building.

Another thing, i really think i2p should make the default bandwidth be unlimited , or 200KB/s at least, if the previous hop in my circuit set their bandwidth to 50KB/s, no matter how large i set my sharing bandwidth, i will never get ≥50KB/s speed. if people never get a larger bandwidth, why you think they will set the bandwidth more big?
Last edited by gongzisun on 21 May 2018 05:22, edited 1 time in total.
echelon
Posts: 261
Joined: 10 Feb 2018 13:36

Re: About encourage people to use i2p

Post by echelon »

Hi

About bandwidth: not easy, not all android device has more than 3G connectivity. Or even DSL lines at home may have only 700kbit/sec bandwidth.
I2P should not harm the users system until user cannot do anything else, there's always this tradeoff.

More outproxies, sure, working on that. But users need to set them up, I2P itself cannot do that for various (legal) reason. I2P itself need to work on the way to set them up and use them.

About the product: a lot of tools do exist, the content is missing. iMule, gnutella client, webforum, IRC, aktie, nightweb,syndie, lots of tools and products. But users do not use them much, as it is not their field of interest. Thats fine for each user, but in sum it's to bad for the dev of the tools.

echelon
gongzisun
Posts: 5
Joined: 23 Mar 2018 08:20

Re: About encourage people to use i2p

Post by gongzisun »

About the bandwidth, I guessed that is your worry, but who's bandwidth is very limited, he won't keep i2p run as a service, i2p will not hurt anything.

And i just suggest to make it be the default setting, not a hardcode, can't be changed. keep a tip in the homepage of webui to warn people, it think it is a win-win.

The outproxy, people around me, they think it is too complex to set up one, they are pleasure to set outproxy for themselves, but they want a simple way, like tor usr a configure file torrc, no need to install another software, just a commond line, no more operation.

Finally, the content, limited by the bandwidth, i2p is not suitable for sharing, people's sharing focus on movies/TV, share these over i2p will take almost 1 day.
So, iMule, gnutella, user can't keep use it, they can use torrent over VPN for the law problem.
IRC, it too geek, too old for now.
Webforum, aktie, syndie, you are right, it is not their field of interest.

If i2p can't solve the speed/outproxy, i2p have to explore a new way, it's speed can only for text/emoji/LQ picture, audio/video is too much, but they are the mainstream in this era.
echelon
Posts: 261
Joined: 10 Feb 2018 13:36

Re: About encourage people to use i2p

Post by echelon »

Hi

People want to use I2P as a client and as a relay and for a lot of use cases. So even the android 8kb/sec users need to be able to use I2P in default mode. So a decent I2P default bandwidth setting makes sense. People who want to run I2P 24/7 as a powerful relay will change other options, so setting this small option also is no big hassle.
There are ideas about setting bandwidth automaticly based on line speed, but thats a far bigger error source, as detection of line speed cannot be setup a good way.
And it is currently a install notice and on first webpage you see in router control, to change your bandwidth. People just do not read.

Yes, setting up a outproxy is a more complex task, as it needs lots of thinking and optimization for users to run a good outproxy with all the features users need. But a basic proxy is setup with apt-get install squid on debian e.g.
A outproxy will not be included into I2P router suite, it will always be kept seperate. User who may run a outproxy should consider this and will have to make other choices before setting one up. It can be made as a plugin, IMHO Outertubes was a plugin for this.
Setting up a proxy in I2P is a bit more than one config option, but the hidden service manager is quite simple and easy and fast to be solved.

As torrent is the most used application in I2P, I2p is suitable for sharing perfectly. It is just slower. And this will not change much. It is slower and will stay slower due to basic physics of the system.
Also I do know lots of users using torrent who want to discuss in syndie, Aktie or webforums. Thats why those do exist.
Also I do see the need of a discussion forum for content, but thats offtopic for this forum.

I2P cannot solve the speed and outproxy situation, as those are far beyond the cope and target of I2P itself.
I2P will never be as fast as clearnet, it will always be slower due to the 12 hops relay network it is based on. Also I2P is a internal network, not built to reach the clearnet, thats whats Tor is built for.
If You want speed and outproxy, use Tor and clearnet.
If I2P does both, getting more speed with dropping Tunnel setup it uses now, and using outproxy in big scale, it is no more I2P.

echelon
echelon
Posts: 261
Joined: 10 Feb 2018 13:36

Re: About encourage people to use i2p

Post by echelon »

P.S.:
Moved topic to a more suitable category.

Also, if you do know friends who wants to run a outproxy do show them these howtos:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=189
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=190

Simple, easy, short.

echelon
gongzisun
Posts: 5
Joined: 23 Mar 2018 08:20

Re: About encourage people to use i2p

Post by gongzisun »

echelon wrote: 23 Apr 2018 12:30 And it is currently a install notice and on first webpage you see in router control, to change your bandwidth. People just do not read.
In this case, maybe you should change some default options, sometimes, made it free totally, it won't be better than pre-configure. If you don't want hurt any freedom, you could do it like freenet, force people set it in the tutorial in the first run.

Yes, setting up a outproxy is a more complex task, as it needs lots of thinking and optimization for users to run a good outproxy with all the features users need. But a basic proxy is setup with apt-get install squid on debian e.g.
A outproxy will not be included into I2P router suite, it will always be kept seperate.
I found so many people don't know how to set a web proxy server, even coder they are. Yes outproxy is not what i2p want to do, so you have the only way, creating in i2p.

As torrent is the most used application in I2P, I2p is suitable for sharing perfectly. It is just slower. And this will not change much. It is slower and will stay slower due to basic physics of the system.
Also I do know lots of users using torrent who want to discuss in syndie, Aktie or webforums. Thats why those do exist.
Also I do see the need of a discussion forum for content, but thats offtopic for this forum.
I think you had noticed what type fo people are in syndie, Aktie or webforums, all geeks, i don't say something should be ended, just something more suit for normal users should be added.
echelon
Posts: 261
Joined: 10 Feb 2018 13:36

Re: About encourage people to use i2p

Post by echelon »

Hi!

We cannot let the bandwidth open, it is needed to classify the router itself. And we cannot force people to enter a vlaue, as this would destroy unattended setups or android packages.
Best solution currently is to set a sane default value, reconsider this value each year/biyearly, and adopt if needed/valid for most of users.
Overall bandwidth per user did raise from 16 kb/sec default in 2005 up to the current settings already, as the amount of users with ISDN or 54k BAUD internet dropped out.

There is no normal user, each user has a special interest in something, thats a good thing. So the tools describes the interest of the devs and the users currently, mostly of the dev itself.
On average a user wants a one click tool which always works and no difference against the real net. This will never happen, as it is also dangerous to the user itself.

Current situation in I2P is a landscape grown in 15 years of I2P usage and users - tools like iMule were big and are on a way down, although very easy to use. Tools like Aktie are nice, do have a big potential, but dev has no more time. Syndie is a great tool, and its concept is copied over a dozen time all over the world (without others really do know syndie itself), but its GUI is not easy to use.

P.S.: creating conten, sure, thats what we do in this forum here, our webpage, the code repository.
But the 5 active I2P devs cannot do all the code AND all the content users may want to have inside a network.

echelon
gongzisun
Posts: 5
Joined: 23 Mar 2018 08:20

Re: About encourage people to use i2p

Post by gongzisun »

If everyone build his own house in i2p, than i don't know how to encourage people to use it. :(

You should give Retroshare a try(clearnet mode), it get high speed with anonymity, because its relay doesn't limit the bandwidth in default setting. One day, i2p's only advantage sharing which be used mostly will not be here.

I2p need changes, people can keep limit their bandwidth, just need changing the default setting.
noxan
Posts: 4
Joined: 21 Apr 2018 15:31

Re: About encourage people to use i2p

Post by noxan »

My server is hosting my website in I2P and Tor. I got mails from several people in the Tor net, asking what to do in I2P. In my opinion one of the problems is just Tor. It is very easy to install and manage. Just open the Tor browser. The effort to install I2P and adjust the bandwidth is much higher for "normal" web users. I understand that this cannot be changed but it is perhaps one reason why less people are using I2P.
And if a user takes the effort to install I2P, he likes to see good content. Many of the links in the addressbook and on some websites are dead. I often use http://identiguy.i2p/ to find good content, but I found this site randomly.
In my opinion a good help for new users is an easy router homepage with less technical and more practical links to easier find interesting content in I2P. Perhaps the router homepage can show a simple overview with links for "normal" users and a link to the advanced settings. Some people told me that they were confused about the homepage and did not know that to do there.

I2P is much more than file sharing but good content is sometimes hard to find. We need perhaps more personal websites and social media. Social media is what the users are searching for.
MANIAC

Re: About encouraging people to use i2p

Post by MANIAC »

More outproxys for clearnet
Unless you're hosting them, forget it. Legally and technically it's not feasible. Tor is already an excellent open proxy, exits are a constant source of problems. I2P can't even hold an open http connection.
In my opinion one of the problems is just Tor. It is very easy to install and manage. Just open the Tor browser.
I agree. Tor is so popular partly because users don't need to participate in the network to use it.
In my opinion a good help for new users is an easy router homepage with less technical and more practical links to easier find interesting content in I2P.
Always people suggest making the router console simpler. That's already been done, the simple page loads first. Remember, the console is the management center for I2P, there must be information there for it to be useful. Besides shutdowns, Users don't even need to interact with it after initial setup.

I don't think I2P should be focusing on bringing in the kind of users who won't even set up their router. I'm not saying we should turn people away for not being computer-literate, but lazy users who just want the stuff and then leave forever after two days are valueless. Focus on the people who will help sustain and grow the network if they like what they see here.
Many of the links in the addressbook and on some websites are dead.
Most eepsites are not long-lived. One way I've combated dead links is by preferring subscriptions that list only recent alive hosts. As for the problem with subscriptions, I2P might be open to liability if they link to (some might say "endorse") services that lead to illegal content. Not having complete addressbooks are a problem, but I think I2P Projekt's hands are tied on this one. I2PWiki is a great resource for services elsewhere in the network.
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